Sounds like a great deal. What scares me a bit about electric cars

>> is I'm seeing all sorts of people online complaining that in less
>> than 8 years they had to put in a new battery and it was costing
>> almost as much as a new car, often at least $35,000, more for
>> the higher end cars..

If I were looking at "electric cars," I would be looking at a hybrid.

They do sound more practical and, with a less than perfect system
of charging stations in many areas, having the option of using
gas instead sounds like a good plan..

---
* SLMR Rob * 26% of Canadians can't read. The other 92% can't do Math.
* Origin: Capitol City Online (1:2320/105)

I'm seeing all sorts of people online complaining that in less

> than 8 years they had to put in a new battery

BMW does great thermal management and battery maintenance. People on some of

>the BMW boards showed cars with limited degradation and 100,000+ miles.

The wear out is probably linked more to battery age than the miles
put on the car so you'd need to know both..

Compare with a Nissan Leaf, they apparently have horrid battery management

>and lose their collective chrarges after 5-6 years.

And of course, one of the cheaper electric cars..

Can't you switch over to more common makes of tires when they

> wear out?

There's only one model and brand of all-season tire that fits. :(

Really? An odd size then.. Probably done purposely to sell their
expensive tires.. Possibly new wheels could be purchased that
are a more common size, but that's an expensive change.

---
* SLMR Rob * We have all passed a lot of water since then
* Origin: Capitol City Online (1:2320/105)

Rob Mccart wrote to KURT WEISKE <=-

BMW does great thermal management and battery maintenance. People on some

f
>the BMW boards showed cars with limited degradation and 100,000+ miles.

The wear out is probably linked more to battery age than the miles
put on the car so you'd need to know both..

Agreed, these were 2014/2015s, the first years the made the BMW i3.

Can't you switch over to more common makes of tires when they

> wear out?

There's only one model and brand of all-season tire that fits. :(

Really? An odd size then.. Probably done purposely to sell their
expensive tires.. Possibly new wheels could be purchased that
are a more common size, but that's an expensive change.

Well, they don't get the money for the tires, Bridgestone does. I'm sure
it's an engineer designing in a vacuum for lowest possible rolling
resistance.

Like the engineer that canted the spark plugs back 30 degrees on the Prius.
If they'd canted them forward, changing them would be a breeze. As is, you need to take off the wipers, the wiper valance and other parts to get to
them.


... Walk without rhythm and you won't attact the worm.
--- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
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Do you leave the car running while
using that or will it go for a while without killing the battery?

With a hybrid, you leave it in "ready" mode, and the engine kicks over

> when needed to keep the 12v battery charged. The last time I ran it,
> the engine kicked over once every 15 minutes or so for a couple of
> minutes. Over 3 days, I went through about a quarter tank.

I assume you mean the gas engine started up every 15 minutes?

I don't know if all are the same but, as I understand it, a Hybrid
has just about the same battery capacity as a fully electric car
but has a small gas engine in the system which doesn't run the car,
it runs a generator to power the car and charge the main battery
when power gets low.

Is that close to right ?

If so I would have guessed that the main battery would have powered
your inverter for a lot longer than 15 minutes..

---
* SLMR Rob * I'm in a class by myself... Everyone else graduated
* Origin: Capitol City Online (1:2320/105)

Yes. I had a plug-in Prius. I'd charge it at home on a 110 volt plug

How long would it take to charge it up on a regular 110 volt system?

About 4 1/2 hours on a plain old 110v plug.

That's fast.. I've heard people complain that using a 220 volt
line it can take all night to charge ones with bigger batteries
I assume..

They are a little cheaper than gas if you charge them at home
but if you use the fast chargers the cost goes up enough to be
higher than using gas for the same trip

With my BMW, when I first got it, I found a home utility rate plan that

> dropped the overnight price of electricity, and it was cheaper charging
> at home than buying gas.

Yes, we have time of day rates on our electricity here too.
The cost at night compared to mid day is less than half the price.
There's also what they call a Mid Peak rate falling between those.

I missed my first gig at this company - we sold hybrid battery electric

> solar systems, essentially a smart battery/solar combo that would
> figure out whether to sell power back to the utility, run off of solar,
> or charge the batteries, based on historical usage and weather
> forecasting.

We had 4 free chargers as a nice perk, running off of one of our own

> systems.

My sister is into that stuff. Not exactly the same but they have a
roof full of solar panels and they sell the power created back to
the utility at about 4 times the price per KWH than they pay to buy
power from the utility. But it's an all or nothing thing, they don't
keep some of that power and sell off the extra. It all goes to the
utility and then they pay a power bill like normal..

It's wasn't cheap though. I think she paid about $80,000 for the
panels and computer equipment that runs it and tracks output.

---
* SLMR Rob * And the wise mute said " "
* Origin: Capitol City Online (1:2320/105)

Rob Mccart wrote to KURT WEISKE <=-

I don't know if all are the same but, as I understand it, a Hybrid
has just about the same battery capacity as a fully electric car
but has a small gas engine in the system which doesn't run the car,
it runs a generator to power the car and charge the main battery
when power gets low.

There's different tech out there.

A hybrid has an electric engine and a gas engine running the
drivetrain. One or both can move the car, but the electric has limited
range. Braking and driving under a light load charges the battery.

Plug-in hybrids have a larger battery, follow the same charging
options, but you can also plug it in to AC power to charge at home or
at a charging station. They typically have a small electric range, on
the order of 10-30 miles. Great for long trips and short in-town
errands - you run the errands on the latter, long trips on the former.

Battery Electric vehicles are all electric. No gas engine.

Range extender vehicles are battery electric vehicles with a small gas
engine that acts as a generator to charge the battery. I had a BMW i3
that had an electric battery worth 120 miles of electric range and
another 80 miles with the gas engine charging the battery.



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Rob Mccart wrote to KURT WEISKE <=-

About 4 1/2 hours on a plain old 110v plug.

That's fast.. I've heard people complain that using a 220 volt
line it can take all night to charge ones with bigger batteries
I assume..

Yeah, plug-in hybrids have smaller batteries.

My BMW i3 had a relatively small battery for an EV, and it took around
4 1/2 hours to charge with a small-ish, 16 amp/220 volt charger. They
make 40 amp chargers, I'd assume you'd want that charging a Tesla.

They have timers, and when you get a time-of-day utility plan, you want
to wait. I told mine to charge at 12:00am, and it kicked off when the
rates dropped.

One wonderful thing about that car I miss - tell it when you leave in
the morning, and it'll pre-heat the interior and the battery. Stepping
into a warm car on a cold morning is WONDERFUL.

My sister is into that stuff. Not exactly the same but they have a
roof full of solar panels and they sell the power created back to
the utility at about 4 times the price per KWH than they pay to buy
power from the utility. But it's an all or nothing thing, they don't
keep some of that power and sell off the extra. It all goes to the
utility and then they pay a power bill like normal..

It's wasn't cheap though. I think she paid about $80,000 for the
panels and computer equipment that runs it and tracks output.

People are making apartment-sized solar/battery arrays, small enough to
put in a window or on a balcony, and with a smallish battery. Would be
great for running electronics and keeping a battery for outages.



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KW >the BMW boards showed cars with limited degradation and 100,000+ miles.

The wear out is probably linked more to battery age than the miles
put on the car so you'd need to know both..

Agreed, these were 2014/2015s, the first years the made the BMW i3.

So it sounds like they are standing up better than most.
You sort of expect the more costly cars to have better parts..

Really? An odd size then.. Probably done purposely to sell their
expensive tires.. Possibly new wheels could be purchased that
are a more common size, but that's an expensive change.

Well, they don't get the money for the tires, Bridgestone does. I'm sure

>it's an engineer designing in a vacuum for lowest possible rolling
>resistance.

Begging the question, would most drivers even notice ?

Like the engineer that canted the spark plugs back 30 degrees on the Prius.

>If they'd canted them forward, changing them would be a breeze. As is, you
>need to take off the wipers, the wiper valance and other parts to get to
>them.

Ha.. Like the 8 cylinder AMC Gremlin X cars in the 70's. There was
no way to change one or two of the spark plugs without pulling the
engine from the car, although some clever people figured out that
you could cut a good sized hole in the inner fender wells and pull
the tire to get at those plugs..

---
* SLMR Rob * There was a problem at the hospital..I've been recalled
* Origin: Capitol City Online (1:2320/105)

I got through that okay, and then at 7pm tonight my power
went out for 5 1/2 hours

It seemed to me that refrigerators used to be good, unpowered, for

>around 12-14 hours if you didn't open it during a power outage. My new
>fridge manual says 4 hours for the fridge, 12-14 hours for the freezer.

If it drops to 50f in the house the fridge will last longer.. B)

I assume you mean the freezer in the fridge?. If it's a simpler
fridge the cold in the freezer would be bleeding down into the
fridge below and I'd think the fridge should be okay a lot longer
than the freezer compartment.

I had the power go off for 27 hours last early winter and I was able
to keep it up to about 60f during the day and it would drop to
the high 40's at night, and I didn't have any problem with most of
the stuff in the fridge.

The biggest problem when it gets cold in the house even if you have
power is the fridge won't run often enough to keep the freezer
working right. Stuff in the fridge is fine but, i.e. the ice cream
in the freezer melts..

In cool but above freezing weather (50f?) I've had a Chest freezer
last for 3 days.. As you said, just don't open them..

We live in an area prone to falling trees, and have had our share of

>outages. I've resorted to running an inverter off of my car, running an
>extension cord from the carport to my kitchen, and running the fridge
>every couple of hours. The nice thing is that our new hot water heater
>is tankless, and I can run it off the same inverter - the electonics
>need power, but the heating is all gas.

In winter I can't get my car within 150 feet of the house, but I
would wonder how much power you could get out of it. My car actually
has a 110 volt outlet in it, but I doubt it could run anything of
higher draw than electronic devices (Yes.. maximum 150 watts).
I have a 300 watt inverter with my tools but, looking at my fridge,
it would just *barely* run on that but it draws 400 watts starting
up and it may not handle that..

---
* SLMR Rob * Chicken Little only has to be right once
* Origin: Capitol City Online (1:2320/105)

Rob Mccart wrote to KURT WEISKE <=-

In winter I can't get my car within 150 feet of the house, but I
would wonder how much power you could get out of it. My car actually
has a 110 volt outlet in it, but I doubt it could run anything of
higher draw than electronic devices (Yes.. maximum 150 watts).
I have a 300 watt inverter with my tools but, looking at my fridge,
it would just *barely* run on that but it draws 400 watts starting
up and it may not handle that..

I bought an 1100 watt inverter - it plugs directly into the battery
instead of the lighter socket. My carport is right outside the kitchen,
and the tankless water heater is on the outside wall of the carport.

I asked my kids to plug something into the lighter socket in the car,
they had no idea what I was talking about...



--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
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I don't know if all are the same but, as I understand it, a Hybrid
has just about the same battery capacity as a fully electric car
but has a small gas engine in the system which doesn't run the car,
it runs a generator to power the car and charge the main battery
when power gets low.

There's different tech out there.

A hybrid has an electric engine and a gas engine running the

> drivetrain. One or both can move the car, but the electric has limited
> range. Braking and driving under a light load charges the battery.

Plug-in hybrids have a larger battery, follow the same charging

> options, but you can also plug it in to AC power to charge at home or
> at a charging station. They typically have a small electric range, on
> the order of 10-30 miles. Great for long trips and short in-town
> errands - you run the errands on the latter, long trips on the former.

10 to 30 miles certainly limits those to light city use.
I assume this one also has a gas engine, which would be a good thing.

Battery Electric vehicles are all electric. No gas engine.

Range extender vehicles are battery electric vehicles with a small gas

>engine that acts as a generator to charge the battery. I had a BMW i3
>that had an electric battery worth 120 miles of electric range and
>another 80 miles with the gas engine charging the battery.

Thanks for clearing that up. I'd heard about the gas engine powering
a generator rather than the drivetrain and assumed that setup was a
lot more common than it appears it is.

---
* SLMR Rob * Smile... It doesn't matter why
* Origin: Capitol City Online (1:2320/105)

Rob Mccart wrote to KURT WEISKE <=-

Plug-in hybrids have a larger battery, follow the same charging

> options, but you can also plug it in to AC power to charge at home or
> at a charging station. They typically have a small electric range, on
> the order of 10-30 miles. Great for long trips and short in-town
> errands - you run the errands on the latter, long trips on the former.

10 to 30 miles certainly limits those to light city use.
I assume this one also has a gas engine, which would be a good thing.

Yes. I had a plug-in Prius. I'd charge it at home on a 110 volt plug
and be able to go to the store on electric, pick up kids from school,
and so forth. When the charge drops, you're essentially driving a
regular hybrid car.

Drive down a big hill and you'd get a couple of miles of "free"
electric range.

Battery Electric vehicles are all electric. No gas engine.

Thanks for clearing that up. I'd heard about the gas engine powering
a generator rather than the drivetrain and assumed that setup was a
lot more common than it appears it is.

The only two I know of are the Chevy Volt and the BMW i3.

Another interesting design is the Volvo VC90, a full-sized SUV. It
started out as an AWD gas car. They took out the rear differential,
replaced it with an electric motor, and put the batteries in the
driveshaft hump. The gas engine drives the front wheels, the electric
drives the rear.

You can drive all electric, blended, or all gas. I wonder how they
handle the change in handling going from rear to front wheel drive?






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My BMW i3 had a relatively small battery for an EV, and it took around

> 4 1/2 hours to charge with a small-ish, 16 amp/220 volt charger. They
> make 40 amp chargers, I'd assume you'd want that charging a Tesla.

Yes, some of those have a great range on a charge but you pay for
it one way or another..

My sister is into that stuff. Not exactly the same but they have a
roof full of solar panels and they sell the power created back to
the utility at about 4 times the price per KWH than they pay to buy
power from the utility.

The Utility has stopped paying that much for power now. My sister
has a contract so her rates will stay but new people wanting to
do that will get only 30 cents per KWH instead of her 80 cents.

Buying power from them allowing for time of day costs from
about 10 cents per KWH at night up to 20 cents at peak.

People are making apartment-sized solar/battery arrays, small enough to

> put in a window or on a balcony, and with a smallish battery. Would be
> great for running electronics and keeping a battery for outages.

Yes, they have various sizes of those available here, some to sit
in the window of your car keeping the car battery topped up..

---
* SLMR Rob * It's certainly not MY fault... I barely touched it
* Origin: Capitol City Online (1:2320/105)

Rob Mccart wrote to KURT WEISKE <=-

My BMW i3 had a relatively small battery for an EV, and it took around

> 4 1/2 hours to charge with a small-ish, 16 amp/220 volt charger. They
> make 40 amp chargers, I'd assume you'd want that charging a Tesla.

Yes, some of those have a great range on a charge but you pay for
it one way or another..

The BMW was a deal - they've depreciated seriously. A great deal for
the used buyer, not so much for the seller. The sticker on mine was
$53K in 2018, I got it with 18K miles for $18K.

Maintenance was a breeze - oil change every year, brake fluid and spark
plugs every 2.

What bothered me were the tires. No spare, different sizes on the front
and back, and one manufacturer in that size. the tires were around $250
a corner and wore out in 25-30K miles.

I started doing long commutes and was worried that if I blew a tire on
the not so well-maintained highway I drive, I'd need to tow it to a
tire store, have them order a tire, uber back home and uber back to
pick it up.

I'm much happier having a spare with me.

My sister is into that stuff. Not exactly the same but they have a
roof full of solar panels and they sell the power created back to
the utility at about 4 times the price per KWH than they pay to buy
power from the utility.

The Utility has stopped paying that much for power now. My sister
has a contract so her rates will stay but new people wanting to
do that will get only 30 cents per KWH instead of her 80 cents.

Buying power from them allowing for time of day costs from
about 10 cents per KWH at night up to 20 cents at peak.

People are making apartment-sized solar/battery arrays, small enough to

> put in a window or on a balcony, and with a smallish battery. Would be
> great for running electronics and keeping a battery for outages.

Yes, they have various sizes of those available here, some to sit
in the window of your car keeping the car battery topped up..

---
* SLMR Rob * It's certainly not MY fault... I barely touched it
* Origin: Capitol City Online (1:2320/105)

--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
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I have a 300 watt inverter with my tools but, looking at my fridge,
it would just *barely* run on that but it draws 400 watts starting
up and it may not handle that..

I bought an 1100 watt inverter - it plugs directly into the battery

>instead of the lighter socket. My carport is right outside the kitchen,
>and the tankless water heater is on the outside wall of the carport.

Right.. that would work better. My 300 is direct to battery terminals
as well but not high enough output. Do you leave the car running while
using that or will it go for a while without killing the battery?

I asked my kids to plug something into the lighter socket in the car,

>they had no idea what I was talking about...

Ha.. yes, I can see that.. It's all changing.. I mentioned I have
a 110 volt outlet right in the car and I have USB ports front and
back seats for charging and things like I can plug a flash drive
into it with music on it and it will play through the stereo
system's 9 (I believe) speakers. Things are changing..
(And my car is a 2017!)

---
* SLMR Rob * It's a shame that stupidity isn't painful
* Origin: Capitol City Online (1:2320/105)

The BMW was a deal - they've depreciated seriously. A great deal for

> the used buyer, not so much for the seller. The sticker on mine was
> $53K in 2018, I got it with 18K miles for $18K.

Sounds like a great deal. What scares me a bit about electric cars
is I'm seeing all sorts of people online complaining that in less
than 8 years they had to put in a new battery and it was costing
almost as much as a new car, often at least $35,000, more for
the higher end cars..

Maintenance was a breeze - oil change every year, brake fluid and spark

> plugs every 2.

I put on very few miles, 1200 to 1500 a year, so I also just do
one oil change a year (even though they recommend 2) but I have
it done at a Ford Dealership where they charge more but they do
those 29 point service checks checking the whole car for problems.

What bothered me were the tires. No spare, different sizes on the front

> and back, and one manufacturer in that size. the tires were around $250
> a corner and wore out in 25-30K miles.

I started doing long commutes and was worried that if I blew a tire on

> the not so well-maintained highway I drive, I'd need to tow it to a
> tire store, have them order a tire, uber back home and uber back to
> pick it up.

I'm much happier having a spare with me.

Can't you switch over to more common makes of tires when they
wear out? I've always had a spare in the cars I owned but in recent
years they usually come with those skinny little temporary tires..

In all the years I've driven (55 years?) I've only had to change
a tire 2 or 3 times..

---
* SLMR Rob * Caught between a moose and a snowplow...
* Origin: Capitol City Online (1:2320/105)

The BMW was a deal - they've depreciated seriously. A great deal for

> the used buyer, not so much for the seller. The sticker on mine was
> $53K in 2018, I got it with 18K miles for $18K.

Sounds like a great deal. What scares me a bit about electric cars
is I'm seeing all sorts of people online complaining that in less
than 8 years they had to put in a new battery and it was costing
almost as much as a new car, often at least $35,000, more for
the higher end cars..

If I were looking at "electric cars," I would be looking at a hybrid.

Mike


* SLMR 2.1a * Is it OK to yell "MOVIE" in a crowded Fire Station??
--- SBBSecho 3.28-Linux
* Origin: Capitol City Online (1:2320/105)

Rob Mccart wrote to KURT WEISKE <=-

Sounds like a great deal. What scares me a bit about electric cars
is I'm seeing all sorts of people online complaining that in less
than 8 years they had to put in a new battery and it was costing
almost as much as a new car, often at least $35,000, more for
the higher end cars..

BMW does great thermal management and battery maintenance. People on some of the BMW boards showed cars with limited degradation and 100,000+ miles.

Compare with a Nissan Leaf, they apparently have horrid battery management
and lose their collective chrarges after 5-6 years.

Can't you switch over to more common makes of tires when they
wear out? I've always had a spare in the cars I owned but in recent
years they usually come with those skinny little temporary tires..

There's only one model and brand of all-season tire that fits. :(


... Before WW I, men could be drafted into the circus.
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Mike Powell wrote to ROB MCCART <=-

If I were looking at "electric cars," I would be looking at a hybrid.

I still miss my Prius plug-in. Best of both worlds.


... The Tuba is technically a percussion instrument.
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Rob Mccart wrote to KURT WEISKE <=-

Right.. that would work better. My 300 is direct to battery terminals
as well but not high enough output. Do you leave the car running while using that or will it go for a while without killing the battery?

With a hybrid, you leave it in "ready" mode, and the engine kicks over
when needed to keep the 12v battery charged. The last time I ran it,
the engine kicked over once every 15 minutes or so for a couple of
minutes. Over 3 days, I went through about a quarter tank.


--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
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10 to 30 miles certainly limits those to light city use.
I assume this one also has a gas engine, which would be a good thing.

Yes. I had a plug-in Prius. I'd charge it at home on a 110 volt plug

> and be able to go to the store on electric, pick up kids from school,
> and so forth. When the charge drops, you're essentially driving a
> regular hybrid car.

How long would it take to charge it up on a regular 110 volt system?

They had a story on the electric cars and one thing that came out
was that they are not as efficient to run as they often claim.
They are a little cheaper than gas if you charge them at home
but if you use the fast chargers the cost goes up enough to be
higher than using gas for the same trip.

Drive down a big hill and you'd get a couple of miles of "free"

> electric range.

That much?.. That's something..

Another interesting design is the Volvo VC90, a full-sized SUV. It

>started out as an AWD gas car. They took out the rear differential,
>replaced it with an electric motor, and put the batteries in the
>driveshaft hump. The gas engine drives the front wheels, the electric
>drives the rear.

You can drive all electric, blended, or all gas. I wonder how they

>handle the change in handling going from rear to front wheel drive?

That's quite the thing.. I don't know you'd notice much difference
switching from front wheel drive to rear wheel drive unless you were
really pushing the performance or on slippery roads.

The only real difference I notice is when trying to get out if
you're trying to avoid being stuck in the snow.. B)

I Much prefer rear wheel drive for high performance cars though.
I had a 575hp Chevelle SS and you could use spinning the rear
tires to help steer the car through tight corners and such..
I suppose along those same lines, if you didn't know what you
were doing, those spinning wheels might also steer you where
you Don't want to go.. B)

---
* SLMR Rob * * Make a cat float? You need a blender and ice cream...
* Origin: Capitol City Online (1:2320/105)

Rob Mccart wrote to KURT WEISKE <=-

Yes. I had a plug-in Prius. I'd charge it at home on a 110 volt plug

> and be able to go to the store on electric, pick up kids from school,
> and so forth. When the charge drops, you're essentially driving a
> regular hybrid car.

How long would it take to charge it up on a regular 110 volt system?

About 4 1/2 hours on a plain old 110v plug.

They had a story on the electric cars and one thing that came out
was that they are not as efficient to run as they often claim.
They are a little cheaper than gas if you charge them at home
but if you use the fast chargers the cost goes up enough to be
higher than using gas for the same trip

With my BMW, when I first got it, I found a home utility rate plan that
dropped the overnight price of electricity, and it was cheaper charging
at home than buying gas. Our rates went up 15% in a year (gotta keep
those shareholders happy!) and the calculus changed.

Charging at work ended up costing about as much as gas, because they
were charging more for power.

I missed my first gig at this company - we sold hybrid battery electric
solar systems, essentially a smart battery/solar combo that would
figure out whether to sell power back to the utility, run off of solar,
or charge the batteries, based on historical usage and weather
forecasting.

We had 4 free chargers as a nice perk, running off of one of our own
systems.








.

Drive down a big hill and you'd get a couple of miles of "free"

> electric range.

That much?.. That's something..

Another interesting design is the Volvo VC90, a full-sized SUV. It

>started out as an AWD gas car. They took out the rear differential,
>replaced it with an electric motor, and put the batteries in the
>driveshaft hump. The gas engine drives the front wheels, the electric
>drives the rear.

You can drive all electric, blended, or all gas. I wonder how they

>handle the change in handling going from rear to front wheel drive?

That's quite the thing.. I don't know you'd notice much difference switching from front wheel drive to rear wheel drive unless you were really pushing the performance or on slippery roads.

The only real difference I notice is when trying to get out if
you're trying to avoid being stuck in the snow.. B)

I Much prefer rear wheel drive for high performance cars though.
I had a 575hp Chevelle SS and you could use spinning the rear
tires to help steer the car through tight corners and such..
I suppose along those same lines, if you didn't know what you
were doing, those spinning wheels might also steer you where
you Don't want to go.. B)

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* SLMR Rob * * Make a cat float? You need a blender and ice cream...
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